Paul and Craig discuss Systemic Racism and Troubled Times in Our Country

Listen in and Paul discuss the activities of the past few days in a troubled America

TRANSCRIPT: 2Guys_P&C Racism_050120

[00:00:00] Two Guys Open: [00:00:00] This is the two guys talkin’ Fresno podcast. The podcast with two guys talking about Fresno. Your hosts are Craig Scharton, a lifelong Fresno who loves his community, even though it drives him bonkers 

and Paul Swearengin, a transplant Fresnan, who’s lived in Fresno for more years than he hasn’t and he wouldn’t live anywhere else. It’s time 

for two guys to talk. Fresno. Here’s Craig and Paul on the two guys talking 

Fresno podcast, 

Craig Scharton: [00:00:29] Smooth Operator!

Paul Swearengin: [00:00:34] we should call it the shirt. Two old guys trying to manage technology. 

 Let’s do the show. 

Craig Scharton: [00:00:39] All right. So 

Paul Swearengin: [00:00:42] yeah. 

Craig Scharton: [00:00:44] What a week it’s been, do 

Paul Swearengin: [00:00:46] we have anything to talk about? 

Craig Scharton: [00:00:48] yeah, the entire world looks like it is coming apart at the scenes. 

Paul Swearengin: [00:00:53] And I wonder if that’s true or if just our reactions to everything are coming apart at the seams. [00:01:00]

Craig Scharton: [00:01:00] Yeah. Well, I don’t know that we are boys in a real, a unifying place for all of this to begin. 

Paul Swearengin: [00:01:07] Well, the good news is we have a unifying president who will bring us all together in a very calm, calculated thought through way.

Oh, is that, is that not the, not the case? Yeah. How about that? How about looting and shooting is where you go on the night as president of the United States as is this is going on 

and like I said, a very calming influence at the top of it all. In our country. And so we’re all good. 

Craig Scharton: [00:01:35] Yeah. Well, so, what kind of reflection have you been doing over the last week? 

Paul Swearengin: [00:01:40] I’ve been reflecting on for quite some time on what is my role in systemic racism in America?

have, have I done everything I can to be aware of where I’m a part of it aware of where I can, can engage to be a part of [00:02:00] ending it. And so I woke up really after the event at Miguel res his apartment. And said, okay. I, I, I can’t be silent about issues that are so heavy on my heart. And then when I saw the George Floyd video, I was just like, okay, I, I have to do everything in my power to end this because this is a mindset.

What I see there. And, and I think we, we, if we give ourselves the break of saying, well, that was a bad cop, doing a bad thing with three bad cops around him. I give myself permission to not question where I am and where we are as a culture. And it may very well be that that’s a seriously racist cop that had his neck on his is me on George Ford’s neck.

But I think as much, he’s probably a product of a system in our country that sort of tells [00:03:00] ourselves there is a group of people that are a little different than the rest of us. And when dealing with. Those people, we have to deal with them differently. And I don’t think, I think many of us would say overtly, we don’t do that.

I, you know, the, I have black friends, I have Hispanic friends. I’m good to them. They’re just people to me, but there’s. There’s something in our system that sort of says, there’s a group of people who are just a little bit different and have to be treated just a little bit different. And then if you’re particularly, if you’re a cop and you’re dealing with.

High stress situations on an ongoing basis, having to make very difficult decisions and, and you low grade have this belief system already because you just live in it like we all do. And then there’s some training about, well, when confronted in a particular way, you have to respond in a particular way.

It sets us up for these types of moments. And I think if we don’t. [00:04:00] Take this opportunity and this season to say, okay, I’m going to lean into the truth of that and, and see where I fit into that. Then we just set ourselves up to continue to have these over and over again. And so bottom line, and then I’ll shut up is I think we all are asking why does this keep happening?

And when I’m training somebody on emotional health, I’m saying, whenever, you’re saying, why does this keep happening to me? You are the common denominator in all of those situations. And you have to start to think, is there an underlying root cause? And, and so I think we just can’t say, man, there’s another bad cop that we have to deal with.

No, instead is there’s a system that’s, that’s impacting us all on an ongoing basis. So these things keep happening again until we confront it, recognize it, acknowledge it and dig through it. We’re going to continue to see these events. 

Craig Scharton: [00:04:51] Yeah, well, and I think, I think it is, both us, the stomach problem and something that we all can individually [00:05:00] challenge ourselves at.

Right. I, I’ve never really been a person that really cared about anyone’s gender or sexual orientation or race. I mean, it’s never. Seemed interesting to me to care about people that way. or I guess other people would say I don’t give a flying whatever, 

vague. Thank you. That’s a good precedent way to put it.

And I, I really think it’s, it’s boring to view the world through that lens, but I know that we can always do better and we can always think about things, you know, As change happens differently and more sympathetically than we ever were comfortable doing before. So just constantly pushing, but you know, that’s should be all of our goal is hopefully would be to continually become more conscious beings, in all aspects of our life.

And this seems [00:06:00] like a particularly should be a baseline, thing that we’re working on. But. so there’s that one thing to me about, you know, I can’t change anyone else. It doesn’t mean you don’t stand up to wrong when you see it or hear it. but I also know that if I work on changing myself to become better, that’s the one person that I have some minor amount of direct control over.

but then the systemic issue is just the one that. You know, it just, you know, my fear is that this happens and that we still don’t do more to change and more to make things more equitable for our people to have opportunity. And, and that we just keep going through these, these spasms without any without, well, I shouldn’t say without any change, but it’s not enough change that to really make this an equitable city state country.

Paul Swearengin: [00:06:57] Yeah. 

Craig Scharton: [00:06:59] And I also don’t [00:07:00] know what, if we have a clear goal to find. So if you don’t have a clear target, it’s hard to, it’s hard to know where you’re headed. Right? Right. There’s an S all of sports is about finding a way to, to have aim at a goal or a wall or a wa whatever it is, bowling pin, you know, whatever that is.

And I just think we need to have a really clear goal that we can all buy into. Which 

Paul Swearengin: [00:07:33] one would that be? 

Craig Scharton: [00:07:35] To me it’s always been, you know, if you look at like the city to say, Fresno’s, you know, our goal, our vision, whatever you want to call it, our mission is to create a community where everyone has the greatest opportunity, real opportunity to become their best self or.

Achieve their highest goal or be the best person. They can be like fill in your own language that way. [00:08:00] And if you look at the statistics and say, does every kid born in Fresno have an equal real shot at becoming the best person they can be? You would say, well, according to these statistics, there are people in certain neighborhoods, but.

Are not achieving that goal. There are people of certain ethnic backgrounds that are not achieving that goal. There are people with, socioeconomic challenges that aren’t achieving that goal. So to make that goal a reality, you could actually measure some things to show that we’re making progress toward that goal.

And that would feel more that feels, I mean, Yes, protest. Yes. Show outrage at an injustice then, but ultimately finding ways to fix, fix the system so that it is more equitable. Shouldn’t be the real goal 

Paul Swearengin: [00:08:59] of [00:09:00] fixing. Did I just flip my camera around? Did you see that? No, I didn’t see that. Well now it’s my sign.

Can you read it straight or is it going backwards? 

Craig Scharton: [00:09:09] No, it’s going straight. 

Paul Swearengin: [00:09:10] Okay. Look at that anyway. Sorry to interrupt there, but, I think you’re right. And so I I’ve been grieving some, and I, I think we’re in a, a really important season because I’ve been asking myself for years. If, if I was at Selma bridge, you know what?

I walk across with Martin Luther RiNo, doctor dr. King. Or would I have chosen the comfort of my living room while it was going on. And I think in some ways, and this is clearly not the same situation and I don’t want to overplay or underplay anything, but I do think it’s a season where we get to decide if we’re willing to stand up or not.

And so part of what I’ve been grieving is watching social [00:10:00] media, seeing people that I know. Taking the way out, I think. And what I mean by taking the way out is if, if we look at the protests and we say, ah, look at the thugs who are out there, looting and stealing. And I think we give ourselves an out. To hear the message of the protestors.

And, and so I had, you know, guys on, on Twitter the other night here trying to you’re showing me video of a building on fire. Okay. Now, are you going to call them thugs, Paul? Now, are you going to call them thugs or, or, you know, another video of some other occurrence now, are you going to call them thugs and, and trying to pin me in a place to say, okay, well, those guys are thugs.

Because I think the danger is if we’re not willing to live, live in the mess of what’s happening. And I, and I’m not in no way endorsing. And I think everybody knows, I shouldn’t even have to stop saying no way, endorsing throwing something through the window at a [00:11:00] target and stealing a TV. But if we allow those.

Things to get, get a distraction of the ongoing narrative of, Hey, these are people who feel a sense of injustice for centuries and just haven’t had a voice to be able to voice it. And so they’re out and sometimes that’s going to get messy for us. Then we’re going to miss the opportunity that’s at hand.

And in some ways I believe we’re taking the out and saying, you know, dr. King, just wait a little while longer. It’s going to be okay. It’s going to work out. W two, which Martin Luther King says, Hey, it’s the white moderates that really disappoint me. I’m I, I thought they would come to our aid. So I do think it’s a day where people like you and me, Craig, and I know your background is different than mine, but who have some space of privilege and culture to stand up and speak out and say, I’m going to sit with those people.

Be counted with them, even if it costs me. [00:12:00] My reputation or, or something else. And that’s really what, as I’ve talked with my friends, from communities of color, that’s what they’re asking is like, just speak out on our behalf because there are people that are going to hear you that won’t hear us. And so really that’s what I’m trying to do.

Craig Scharton: [00:12:17] Yeah. What something, you know, it’s funny. Cause we were, we were where we in a lope Twitter war and someone. Called, bigots or something like that. 

Paul Swearengin: [00:12:27] Two white guys talking Fresno. Was that the new name of the show? 

Craig Scharton: [00:12:31] Yeah. and it was, it was another white guy calling us bigots, which is interesting. you know, I, I honestly, I try to live a life of.

Of being kind to people, your camera just went off. 

Paul Swearengin: [00:12:47] Yeah, that was, that was me. I’m still hearing. 

Craig Scharton: [00:12:50] And, and just, you know, I try to, I’m trying to learn how to love everyone, even people I disagree with and think they’re wrong. You know, we’re trying [00:13:00] to have a show where we. Model civil discourse, even with people that we might agree with 10 or 20% or 30% disagree, the other, what we still manage to hold conversation.

We tried to include a variety of perspectives or community. I mean, I, I, I know we can always do better, but I also try really hard. so. You know, I, I do think we stand up to injustice when we see it. That’s, that’s something that we’re called to do. I think, you know, you always go back to the, to the, second world war and, and Nazi Germany and people had to stand up and you probably were going to pay the price for standing up.

But the same is true of the first, first nations people that were here, before, you know, our country got discovered. and the reservations and the Japanese internment camps and slavery and, [00:14:00] and the list goes on and on and on. but you know, I, I, I want to challenge me, but also everyone else to look beyond, you know, whatever tribe we’re in, liberal, conservative, ethnic, you know, one thing when I hear people from, from the race who was at the wrong at the bad end of genocide, Wanting us to remember their genocide.

And I think there are genocides happening all over the world right now. And not one genocide was bad. They’re all bad. You know, injustice is bad everywhere. So how do we stand up to that and start breaking down those walls and in calling it out when we see it and really trying to make this systemic change.

Paul Swearengin: [00:14:48] And it does, it starts with me, you know, and it starts with me refusing to be tone deaf. And, and this has been a learning experience for me really in the last couple [00:15:00] of years. And I’m embarrassed to say that, that it hasn’t been something that registered with me enough in the past. And so as this stuff is all coming down, talking to a friend of mine who, a young adult woman that works with.

Mostly his Hispanic, young men and women. She says, she says to me, and to my wife, you know, you you’ve got people and maybe she said white people. I don’t know. Let’s, let’s, let’s not be afraid of difficult language at this time, but you know, you’ve got white people who are upset because they’ve been out of business for a few weeks.

And I’m not, I’m not downplaying that that’s a big thing, but she’s like for a few weeks and they’re feeling this sense of injustice and some are even going and protesting at state houses and capitals and other places. She said, my people have been feeling that injustice for hundreds of years, you know, welcome to my [00:16:00] world on an ongoing basis.

And. And again, in those conversations, you hurt here. Things where you, you start to say, Oh, well, that’s not fair. Well, that’s not fair. And we can parse those through, but I think only we can parse those things through, after we say, you know, you’re kind of right. I’m willing to hear your story and know that your story is different than mine.

And that’s what I really think we’ve got to set aside the tribe, like you say, and be willing to hear the other person’s story. And I think that’s really important in this season. 

Craig Scharton: [00:16:32] Yeah, well, and I hear, you know, and, you know, do, do you, you know, do you lump women into all being like this or men? You know, we make fun of men for being stupid or smelly or whatever, like cave men or whatever.

you know, it, all of those things have an effect when we think them. And when we say I’m certainly. so even like just [00:17:00] the dumbest jokes about those kinds of things, are funny jokes just in terms of Tony that all down, changing our own perspectives, trying to model better behavior, you know, even when we don’t understand it, you know, we’ve talked about the pronouns thing earlier.

Don’t I still don’t totally get that just seems like. Oh man. Now there’s one more thing I have to do. And I got that yet. I get up my wits in sometimes, but if that’s important to someone else, then I need to say it’s important to me too. I mean, it’s just cuts across everything. Gender, race, age isn’t Oh, people love to make fun of old guys now.

I mean, there’s not a time that I can’t turn on late night TV while they’re making fun of, Oh, grandpa, this and grandpa that. Well, you know what, I’m a grandpa. I I’m just as much of a person as someone who is not yet a grandpa or grandma. [00:18:00] So I mean that doesn’t help. Like let’s just knock it all off and just treat everyone as a human being as an animal on our planet, that everybody has feelings of mom and Bangladesh.

Loves her child, as much as the mom and Fresno loves her child. Yeah. Let’s count it all down and start trying to love each other. I mean, isn’t that? What your religion preaches? 

Paul Swearengin: [00:18:29] Yeah. Two commandments love, love God and love your neighbor as yourself. And then Jesus defined your neighbor as. That that’s subhuman species that you don’t think deserves God’s love.

And I, and I, I say that. you know, saying that he was talking about a Samaritan, which was a race of people that lived. And it’s interesting because the, the, in the Bible, the Jews were an oppressed people. They were oppressed by the Roman empire, and then [00:19:00] they looked around and they go, look, here’s the Samaritans.

We can oppress these guys. And, you know, so even the oppressed are always looking for who they can oppress. And then Jesus says, I’m going to make that Samaritan the hero of the story. And so that Samaritan would be whomever. Any of us thinks is less worthy of love than other people. 

Craig Scharton: [00:19:20] A little farther in the story say, just loving your neighbor.

Isn’t even enough. You need to love your enemy. 

Paul Swearengin: [00:19:25] Love your enemy. I 

Craig Scharton: [00:19:27] think there was a pretty revolutionary thought. I mean, I don’t think that went over very well. 

Paul Swearengin: [00:19:33] I 

Craig Scharton: [00:19:33] don’t know. I don’t, I don’t think he gets preached that often on Sundays. 

Paul Swearengin: [00:19:37] Well, they do, but they do it in a way of like, you know, love the sinner, hate the sin now, you know, and I’m like, I think we’re hating the sin a lot more than we’re loving the center.

You know, we’re finding ways and, and even more so if we’re talking about the Bible, there’s a passage in Matthew 25 that says, Hey, you know, [00:20:00] everybody, all humans are coming, you know, to this judgment day. And. And it says, okay, the people that are going to get to go into heaven, okay. You guys are the ones that get to go to heaven.

And they’re like, well, why didn’t we get to go to heaven? And it’s because you, you closed the naked, you, you fed the sick, you went to prison and visited the prisoner. And these other people are like, wait, we were really good people. He’s like, yeah, but you didn’t do these things that I asked you to do, which was take care of the poor visit the prisoner in prisoner.

So. Taking care of the oppressed, humbling yourself to hang out with the marginalized, being willing to lay down your rights for others. That’s what Christianity is. And, and again, that’s a little bit of why I’ve been grieving because I think that is something that we’re losing in the mix of our ideology that has gotten so mixed up with our theology.

We have kind of lost our ability to feed the hungry, clothe the naked and visit the prisoner in prison. So 

Craig Scharton: [00:20:58] the other thing that I’ve been [00:21:00] thinking about is, you know, there are ways through policy and program and law and others to make things more equitable. you know, so you can, you know, like we did a, local, you know, local business, purchasing or needs to make it.

Easier to lift up a local business who maybe was a little bit higher on the bid, but now there’s some wiggle room and we choose the local business over the out of town business. if we can, you know, there are other agencies that have laws, and programs designed to hire people, in, communities that are not as economically strong as others.

And we need to enforce those, but, but even, you know, in terms of like police departments, I mean, I, what I’m going to be looking for is are the city council members who are legislators going to start passing policies? Like you [00:22:00] can’t pull your gun out of that holster, unless it is in the, you know, an effort to save an innocent victims by foo is.

You know, having their life threatened currently at the, that moment, you know, if you’re carrying off, someone’s carrying off a child, you know, you know, you got to intervene to protect an innocent person, but you know, even to watch that George Floyd video, I mean, the first time he pulled that gun out of his holster, I’m like, what was he pulling his gun out?

Like that’s w we talked to Jerry Dyer about that, like, I remember cops saying they never in the line of duty, pulled out their, their, their weapon. And now it just seems, you know, and his response was, things are more dangerous now. Well, you know, I, I just, I think the police are going to have to be on the frontline of saying, this is here to protect other people.

but we’re going to figure out how to use our words [00:23:00] and our, and our, Brains and, and other body parts besides our hands and our fists and our boots and our weapons on people. I mean, it just it’s. I would like to see those policy changes come in. So 

Paul Swearengin: [00:23:18] man, I’m stuck on, so today, I’m asking people to take one step in this and sort of made this logo it’s okay.

Take one. Step two. Challenge yourself in this area. And one of the steps that I took this week is I called my city council member. Mike carboxy, who’s the representative of my neighborhood, who I think is, is, is a very upstanding guy. And I just ask him, I asked him kind of the questions you’re saying, I say, how do we make sure this doesn’t happen in Fresno?

What are you doing as my elected representative to make sure. And, and so we had a conversation, it was really good. And he was asking, asking sort of my input and, [00:24:00] and the. The thing I was asking him is a, when are we going to hire the police chief? What does that process look like? Is it going to be an internal hire or external?

You know, who’s going to have input into that and how are we going to make sure that hiring reflects the desire of Fresno to have community policing? And policing, that’s not based upon sort of this systemic problem that we’ve seen around the country. I think it’s a really important thing. And I actually think it’s a really important thing that that hiring take place before the new mayor comes in.

And that’s not specifically aimed at a, at a, at a negative towards the new mayor, but because he has been the police chief for so long and. And, and as a part of the, the police force for so long, I feel like a civilian should make that decision mayor. If I can say that [00:25:00] word, if mayor brand and the group of advisors around him should ultimately make that decision, so that we make sure that that hiring reflects the desire of us all.

To make sure systemic racism is not a part of our police force. And I, and I think, and then also to make sure that transparency is King with our police force and that training to make sure they’re not feeling like I’m going to treat this population different than that is, is in it and all of those things.

So w I. That was my first step, just talked to my city council member. And I would, I would encourage everybody just to call and ask your city council member, like, how are we making sure that George Floyd doesn’t happen in Fresno? Because I’m a little bit concerned of what could happen if that happened in Fresno, 

Craig Scharton: [00:25:49] what it has happened.

And I’m surprised that the protest didn’t happen when that young man was shot in the back of the head, running away from officers. No, that’s what I mean, [00:26:00] that’s, that’s an unacceptable policy right there. That’s unacceptable law. I mean, that is not, you know, I know that is that’s you just can’t do that.

And I, I. A guy might get away from you and, and a might be a bad guy and you might need to really, get the troops out there to try to try to find him and put his Bilbo face on a billboard, trying to find a guy who ran away from the cops, but you don’t shoot him running away from you. I mean, so why weren’t we more pissed off at that?

I mean, I know some people were, but, but, yeah, so someone just said, yeah. Independent police auditor. that really, you know, that that is, is one little piece and a very big cultural change that needs to happen. Tell that happens. We’re going to keep finding people that feel, not feel that are left out of the system.


Paul Swearengin: [00:26:56] well, in one question that somebody asked me about that situation [00:27:00] is why did it take so long for the body cam footage of that incident to come out. And the body cam footage of the waffle house was, was out the next day. You know? And, and so I don’t think I don’t, I don’t know what I think of play for transparency has to be everything and, and the police force of Fresno and Clovis and every other town should want to be the most transparent.

Organizations in the world because we are giving you, we, the people you actually work for us, we’re the customer. And we’re asking you. Well, we’re giving you permission to have a weapon that gives you a choice of life or death for a human being. And so you should want there to be the most transparency of any job out there because it protects you.

It protects you from suspicion. It protects the beat cop from everything feeling like we’re closing ranks a [00:28:00] little bit around this stuff. And so transparency should be. Number one for any police force. We, we definitely want a police auditor. We want it to be, very transparent and very open. So that should be one.

And the other thing is, and again, I’m trying to get facts on all of these things and I’m talking to as many people as we can, but we even had the optics a little bit of. Of this freedom rally at city hall and, and many of my friends from communities of color asking like, wow, it just seems like when, when a white group has a city hall event, the rules are just a little bit different than when somebody else has, has a rule.

And, and I’ve asked and, and some of it is optics and, and city hall is saying, no, that is absolutely not true. We do not handle those differently, but you know, I’ve seen the one thing was. You know, the interim chief hall got his picture taken with his arm around somebody at the event. And the optics of that are just, and without a [00:29:00] mask, without social distancing, the optics were terrible.

And those matter. And I had some idea that he tell me, it’s just optics, fall, stop worrying about it. I’m like, no, the optics matter. They matter. And if, and if a white group is having an event and they park a truck on the sidewalk in the fire lane, and nothing happens to them, there’s no citation. Those things matter.

And now they matter more than ever. So we just need our leaders to be really aware that we’re in a very sensitive time and be open to being really transparent and, and discuss these things. 

Craig Scharton: [00:29:40] And it was only a few months ago that a young man, was over at the Phoenix apartments, a block, not even a block away from me here.

So Rimmer, they showed up to a party and he just started punching the guy. I mean, you know, punching the citizen. I mean, this kind of [00:30:00] stuff. I mean, we all need to be mad about this all the time, because it’s not acceptable. and you know, we do have the body cam footage now, which we didn’t use to have.

And I think that. That one quote, you know, was saying, you know, this didn’t just start. We just started filming it. I think it was a will Smith attributed to will Smith quote. But, but it’s true. you know, we’ve, we’ve got to hold this accountable and, and, someone was saying, you know, there’s a law and order, you know, every campaign runs online order.

We have, you know, judges running with billboards that say, you know, I will be a tough law and order judge. I don’t want you to be tough. I want you to be fair. Right? Right. I mean, it shouldn’t be acceptable for a judge to go in with that attitude. same, you know, the, the district attorney talk about optics.

We’ve got optics about charging dr.  on something that nobody gets charged with having the optics on that [00:31:00] area. Oh, the person from the other person gets from the other party gets treated differently than people from this party do. That’s a bad optic. I mean, there’s a lot of bad optics to go around. And I think your, your approach is really a good one.

We need to go to our council members and say, look, this has to get under control. And, and, and if the police union tells you, if you vote this way, we won’t support you. You need to tell us all that they’re threatening you with political support or lack of political support, because you’re trying to do the right thing.

Right? So, you know, this, I can tell you, everybody wants to police union support so they can have that bad John there on their campaign sign. But, 

Paul Swearengin: [00:31:45] and that’s part of the problem I think is right. And this is what I talked to my car bossy, and I don’t want, I don’t want to. You know, I think he did great.

We had a great conversation. And even when we sat and talked with him on our show, [00:32:00] we asked him, how are you going to say no to the people who finance your campaign? And, and the Fresno police officer’s association has so much political power and financial power in elections. How, how do we, so the only way to change what our elected officials feel is, is they have to hear from the citizenry and.

A friend of mine told me the other day that he, he was told when he was asking questions about policing. And this is not Mike carboxy by the way, that he was told by somebody in city hall, white people just don’t care about this stuff. White people don’t care. This is all you liberal, dark skin people.

And so my thing would be. White skin person. You need to call your elected official a person of privilege person that lives on the North. End of Fresno, particularly conservative Republican Christian friend call. [00:33:00] Your city council member and say, I don’t just want tough policing. I want good policing that makes sure this doesn’t happen in Fresno because I, I think you’re right.

I think if an incident like that happened now, I don’t think it would go quietly into the night. I think it would be, it could turn into a fairly ugly scene in Fresno. 

Craig Scharton: [00:33:19] Yeah. Well it’s it’s and yeah, this is when people are oppressed. They’re going to react. We talked about that and that’s how our country got formed.

Because people felt that 

Paul Swearengin: [00:33:31] you and I both posted that the other day, didn’t we? And isn’t that ironic? I, cause I hear people upset about what they’re seeing going around in our cities right now. But you and I both posted separately the same thing as, Hey, white European, when we were oppressed. When we felt injustice, what did we do?

We went and got access and start busting things up and throwing tea into the Harbor. And today we go, yes. Busted tea party were awesome. [00:34:00] Yeah. So oppressed people will do that. 

Craig Scharton: [00:34:02] Yeah. yeah, it was, to fight that the English government, the British government that we were under was to be a trader. I mean, you were, you were breaking the law by being an American 

Paul Swearengin: [00:34:15] Patriot.

Craig Scharton: [00:34:16] So, you know, it’s, it’s how people are going to react when they’re not included in the system. We had a speaker last year, the San Joaquin Valley manufacturing Alliance. I can’t remember his name offhand, but he was, it was one of those really great speakers, you know? yeah, that just gets everyone going.

Makes you think and makes you laugh and all of that. So he goes down to this front table, you’re like, has a table answer question, and they answer it first. He’s like, you guys are awesome. And he goes off the stage and he high-fives every person at the table, except one about the last one he misses and then goes back up on [00:35:00] stage.

And everyone in the audience is like, you left that guy out. Like, and his whole point was like, That’s just such a little thing. Like I high five, nine out of 10 people, but everyone in here could sense the injustice of leaving someone out right out of 400 people. Everyone like held their breath and they’re like going, no, you forgot.

That’s the guy we know actually. And the point was just really clear about how, how good we can be at spotting unfairness. And if we practice it. 

Paul Swearengin: [00:35:39] I just received a text from a friend. And so I just went online looking. So the president made a speech, just a few moments ago, I guess, and was standing outside a church, holding up a Bible, declaring himself the law and order president.

Craig Scharton: [00:35:55] Oh, nice. And has, 

I’m convinced. 

Paul Swearengin: [00:35:58] It’s that he’s going to [00:36:00] deploy troops to dominate the streets. so I think one thing that we have to resist is. W we unfortunately don’t have a leader right now. That’s bringing a unifying message. But unfortunately we have a president who has seen an opportunity, like how can I get people to forget about 103,000 dead Corona virus people.

I can be the law and order president against those. Those people out there on the street, those bad people who are threatening. And, you know, we’ve seen this before in our history, Richard Nixon, you you’re the silent majority, you’re the law and order people. And, and that has been an ongoing narrative of a power class that is afraid to lose power.

And we just have to resist being manipulated by that stuff. I think the president of the United States, if we had a strong leader as president of the United States, right now, he would be bringing a message, a unifying message, a message calling [00:37:00] for justice, for people who have suffered injustice, he would be focused on the George Floyd case.

But instead we have a. A reality TV show guy as president who, and I, and I’ve somewhat resisted just out and out, you know, talking about my disgust with the president, but right now I think he’s doing exactly the opposite of what. A president ought to be doing. And, and I think it’s very transparent why he’s doing it because he needs to distract from the tough things that have been going on.

And he’s found this as a great opportunity. It was Mexicans who were rapist when he was running in 2016 and now it’s going to be those people and you guys are law and order. And I just ask people resist being manipulated by that kind of language. 

Craig Scharton: [00:37:44] Yeah. So we had a couple of comments and Nicole Zeba our friend.

Okay, should she has so many comments, which I would love. We need to go on a hike so we can talk about all those, but she’s talking about the personnel, commissions that we have at the [00:38:00] city. And, and that is not a very trans transparent kind of a process. and that the chief has, recommended determinate people before.

And they overturn that. I have direct experience with, with, an employee who, inflicted violence on a. On a citizen and terminated them. And that got overturned. yeah, I mean, you know, between the unions and the civil service, you know, you know, I know everyone would like to have a job that they can never get fired from, but.

Somehow we all know better when we need to perform well in our job. And it’s like, but what if you have an arbitrary boss? Well, that’s welcome to the rest of the world. We all have arbitrary bosses, and we all have some that are better than others, but, just letting people feel like they can do whatever they want and get away with it is, is not helpful either.

And it really destroys, The good performing employees morale when they see the [00:39:00] bad employees, not being dealt with, it really is a drag on the entire system. So, and it always seems to protect the, the biggest problems we can get Dion here, talking about that. I know she’s got a union background with what the civil employees, but she also told me when, when I became a department director, like, you know, we’re going to make sure the process is square, but you have people that you’re going to have to deal with.

You know, so that, you know, that’s, that’s all we should do is want the process to be fair. But if the chief said, we need to get rid of people, or I need to at least put people on probation and they’re overturning that, that’s something we, we need to have a certain set of eyes, you know, watching that and to make sure that that is right.

Veronica, John McAllister. suggested our sentence, you to hurt someone had suggested a database for officers who have been found guilty of using excessive force so that they can’t continue to be employed as police officers in different cities or [00:40:00] States. I would think that would be good information.

Paul Swearengin: [00:40:04] That would be good. Wouldn’t it? 

Craig Scharton: [00:40:05] Yeah, there was that one city, in the South Valley. I can’t remember which one it was. Was it McFarland or another one of those that. They had such a hard time getting police officers that they were hiring a bunch of, fired police officers. 

Paul Swearengin: [00:40:19] Oh my goodness. So yeah.

Craig Scharton: [00:40:21] Substantial part of your police force made up with people who have been, let go for a variety of reasons. yeah, I mean, we’ve, we all liked this idea of all of this personnel stuff. You know, there’s nothing that American come out and say, or city manager can say. As soon as there’s a personnel issue, it’s just that they’re not going to say anything.

They legally can’t, but at some point, you know, maybe we do need to know who’s doing well and who’s not doing well. And you know, the rest of us. No. 

Paul Swearengin: [00:40:54] Well, they, you know, they just need to find 

Craig Scharton: [00:40:56] beyond the wall and we know if we’ve achieved our goals or not. 

[00:41:00] Paul Swearengin: [00:41:00] Again, transparency is key and that’s only going to happen if citizens demand it.

Tammy Lou Han Stanislaus says just sitting back and doing nothing is not helping. Either. And she says not pointing fingers because we all do it. So that was how I started coming. One thing too. I would say Craig, and I’m, I’m still learning a little bit about this and you may know more about it than me, but, but the idea of that, that police officers are judged based upon arrest.

Yeah. It’s like a, it’s like, it’s like a ticket cop handing out, you know, you have to hit a quota of tickets wouldn’t we rather promote good driving than then reward the punishment of, of bad. And so instead of. Judging a cop that had a great day by the number of arrests they make and having FBI databases that, that talk about crime based upon arrest and arrest being the good goal of a police officer, measuring something [00:42:00] else, you know, measure the time you interacted with the community and had a good interaction measure the time that you deescalated a situation and didn’t have to make an arrest, you know, find different measures of.

of ways to judge the, the, the job of a, of a beat cop in a police officer, rather than just how many arrests did you make the day? How many bad guys did you put away? And, and maybe it would start to change some of those interactions. 

Craig Scharton: [00:42:28] Well, and, and, you know, I think a lot of people have pointed out president.

It’s not unique in this is that the police department becomes. You know, public safety becomes a hundred percent or 90% of your entire general fund budget. And at that point you’re not investing in the other things that can make this a more high quality of life, equitable place to live. and so again, I’d go back to our mayor and policy makers and say, You know, [00:43:00] what are we doing to prevent people from feeling and being alienated from the economic system?

What are we doing to promote a quality? What are we doing to promote opportunity? what are we doing the higher, you know, hire people from different backgrounds to make sure that we have a representative and diverse, workforce police force. you know, like Joe Castro, I think is doing a great job of reaching out to the outlying communities to make sure that, that, they’re living up to their, their goals of, of educating our community.

I think we have some people doing that really well. We’ve had on, that dr. Goldsmith, Thun, You know, there are people out there that are doing it and they need to be held up to as you know, people that are doing a good job in our community at the same time that we’re pointing fingers. Cause pointing fingers only goes so far.

I don’t, I, if someone wags a finger in my [00:44:00] face or people for a good reason, cause it’s not really going to get the best part of my attention. So the effective. 

Paul Swearengin: [00:44:06] It’s going to depend on what we, the citizens do. And every election, every candidate wants to get the FPO endorsement. They want to be the 

Craig Scharton: [00:44:16] strong RDA 

Paul Swearengin: [00:44:19] standing against crime candidates.

And so obviously there’s polling that shows that’s what people are going to vote for them. They’re going to vote for their own personal safety and they believe the way to get personal safety is to have more cops on the street. And, and I’m not saying we don’t need more cops there, there are ways to look at that.

But if that’s what we demand from our elected officials, that’s what we’re going to get. And that’s, so we have to start saying, I want, I want something a little different than being proactive about that is how we change things. Well, 

Craig Scharton: [00:44:54] yeah, psychological, testing of people, especially that you give weapons to, [00:45:00] you know, I think is really important.

I also understand that the police, can very much, feel under siege and that’s not where we make our best decisions. I know, years ago on our ride, along that I did back in 1987 or so, you know, I just noticed that, in the police car that police officer, either nobody looked at them or, or they, you know, Gave him the Spink guy.

And, and so I’ve made it a point since then. Whenever I see a law enforcement officer, I always wave and smile with them and I want them to just have this planted seed of, Oh, that’s right. There are nice people out there. Oh, don’t look at the world as my enemy. because we do, we do feel that, and I don’t want them to be back into that corner.

Cause then they’re not making the best decisions, but I can tell you living in the Lowell neighborhood that quite often the officers [00:46:00] come in here and it is like they’re entering a war zone and there’s no warmth or interaction, or they’re not looking out their car windows. And we know we need to break that down.

You know, I don’t know, you know, community. Policing never, was, you know, it became this big programmatic thing that had a price tag to it, but I think there’s a better way to do it where you’re just constantly reminding people that this is our community. We love our community that. The vast majority of people of color and the polling that I’ve seen wants to have a safe community.

Also, it’s not, it’s not unique to one app this city to want to have a safe community, but also to have one where you can walk around and know your neighbors and have good acts. That’s the education and careers and jobs and businesses as well. 

Paul Swearengin: [00:46:54] Interesting thing about what you say there though is my, my African American friend would [00:47:00] tell me that.

They tell their kids don’t look at cop in the eye as he’s driving by, you know, you don’t want to catch his attention. So that sort of 

Craig Scharton: [00:47:11] plays 

Paul Swearengin: [00:47:12] a game plays against what you’re talking about there though. 

Craig Scharton: [00:47:14] So how is my sound on here, Paul? 

Paul Swearengin: [00:47:17] Well, I’m seeing Eric there. So I mean, you sound fine to me, but apparently we’re a little uneven, but you, but it sounds good on my end.

So zoom is a different animal than, than what we know, but I think we’re ready to do what’s on my mind. Right? 

Craig Scharton: [00:47:30] Yeah. And I told you at the beginning, what I was going to do. 

Paul Swearengin: [00:47:33] Okay. So you want to say, I don’t remember. I wasn’t listening when you told me 

Craig Scharton: [00:47:41] that wasn’t me either. That was 45 minutes ago. How the heck 

Paul Swearengin: [00:47:44] would I remember that?

And let’s see what was on your mind. I know it’s on my mind. 

Craig Scharton: [00:47:49] Okay. Well, what’s on your mind. I have a lot on my mind actually. Yeah. Talk about pandemics or anything today. 

Paul Swearengin: [00:47:55] I know it’s an amazing, that’s been totally wiped off, off the screen. Isn’t it? [00:48:00] I have a couple of things, but my, my light one is I got a call from Jake yesterday.

Jake called me yesterday. No, Jake, my hair guy, Jake. And he said, I’m cutting hair again, Paul. And so on June 15th, Jake is going to cut my hair for the first time in months and I can’t wait. I’m so excited to get a haircut. 

Craig Scharton: [00:48:30] So are you going to like wear a mask and all of that? 

Paul Swearengin: [00:48:33] Hell yeah, of course.

Absolutely. And Jake is going to wear, I think he’s going to have the full plastic mask thing, so yes. Yeah. Yup. Yup. Is he, is he buying it locally? you know, I don’t know. I don’t know. I’ll have to ask him that. 

Craig Scharton: [00:48:50] So there is a real, okay. That’ll be a good thing. That wasn’t what was going to be on my mind, but I’ll, I’ll use this one.

I don’t know why this one should have come up first. For the last couple of weeks, I’ve [00:49:00] been reaching out to find the manufacturers who are making PPE personal protection equipment. And, there are a lot of local manufacturers that are doing that. And, and in many cases it is saving their business and keeping people employed.

So now that all of these businesses are going to be getting the acrylic dividers and the conference room. And everyone has to have masks. A lot of businesses have to have an inventory of different kinds of masks and hand sanitizer. If, if all of the government agencies, quasi government agencies, nonprofits, businesses, and individuals would commit to buying it from a local source where we’re making it, not just selling it, but making it okay.

Okay. The people working in these plants are as diverse as you can imagine. I mean, they’re probably some of the most diverse places [00:50:00] there are. We can keep people employed and keep businesses running and keep our tax base strong. So we can’t afford to talk about parks and all these other things by choosing to get our, equip our PPE from a locally manufactured source and anyone who wants to get the list that I have, C Sharpton, C S C H E R T O or you can and get us through the Facebook page.

And when we do look at it, we’ll, I’ll send that list out to you of the, of the locally made products and it’s everything from, you know, Tom, MATOC working with his daughters, making masks to, you know, some of the big companies that we have, Dumont printing and. Total concept enterprises. And, Riley’s brewing is making like 30 to 40,000, bottles of hand sanitizer as keeping their people employed.

[00:51:00] So if you really love your neighbor and you know that your neighbor wants and needs a job, let’s keep them all working by not buying stuff from China and doing the things that got us into this mess in the first place. 

Paul Swearengin: [00:51:13] Yeah, it shouldn’t. We have learned by now that that buying things from China is, was not our best idea.

My friend, by the way, Phil and Reesie Skye have put a list of, of, businesses owned by people of color that they’re encouraging people to try. So I’ll link that from our Facebook page as well. So people can check that out, as a, as a way to take a step toward, Healing inequality in our community.

Can I read something to you real quick? Sure. So I wrote a blog and posted it on my website today called a white moderate stew. You have to choose a side. I read it. Oh, you did. Okay. Well, I just want to read the very end of it. So this is, this is my commitment and all of this. And I say today, I choose to lean into the idea that it’s not [00:52:00] those people who are the problem.

It’s me. I choose to demand of myself that I be humbled and turned from my ways before I even think about asking those people to change today, I choose to sit with them. Those people. I choose to hear their stories and their pain, even, even when it pinches my heart and feels unfair. I choose to mourn with them in their pain and will rejoice with them.

As we begin to see transformation in our city region, state, and country today, I choose as much as my heritage and DNA will allow to no longer see people as those people, but instead become one of them today. I am. Those people. And to all my friends of privilege, I say the day of fence sitting is over white moderation can no longer be a place of comfort.

My friends, this is the day to choose whom you will be. So that’s my commitment today. That’s 

Craig Scharton: [00:52:58] that’s, really well said, [00:53:00] and, and I want to challenge everyone, not, I mean, I, I promise you, I challenged myself every day. to try to be better and to grow and to learn, and to help help others. And I never do it to my full capability.

I would always like to do better, but I also see a lot of comments directed at everyone. You know, I, I don’t like any racial group calling another racial group, anything or putting in one group. Making fun of another group, one group thinking that all people that are of that group are the same and I don’t care which group it is.

It’s we need to start seeing each other as human beings and more than human beings as, as animals on this planet. Right. it doesn’t do any good to be killing factories of pigs in Iowa. [00:54:00] You know, by, by suffocating them all. I mean, these are just all these acts of violence out there. Just breed more violence.

So, not all black people think the same, not all white people think the same, not all, Latino people think the same, not all Catholics. Think the same, not all atheists. Think the same. you know, it’s just, we have a wide variety. We have a big spectrum of, of how we can, operate as, as humans. So let’s just try to figure out how to be a little bit better at it.

Give each other some grace doesn’t mean that you allow bad things to happen. but you know, let’s just. 10% more care and almost all the damn problems go away. We can all just go a little bit more for care for others and even care for ourselves. Get a little more sleep, eat a little more healthy exercise, a little bit [00:55:00] more.

Challenge yourself to try to communicate a little bit better than you did yesterday. Listen a little bit better than you did yesterday. Yeah. Husbands and wives. Yeah, we did mention that earlier. D yeah, I mean, a lot of that stuff, I grew up with thinking it was Spanish and I don’t think it’s as funny anymore, but again, it goes in all directions.

Don’t just look for the fault of the other groups. We have to police our own groups and say, that’s not okay to castigate any group of people. They’re all people. 

Paul Swearengin: [00:55:37] And, and I think getting out of your bubble, learning from people that are different than you, read a book. I I’ve been recommending Malcolm.

Gladwell’s talking to strangers to people. I just started an audio book and I’m sorry, I don’t know how to pronounce his name. Is it Tom? Ta-Nehisi coats? Who has a book called between the world and me. I just started listening to it today. It’s painful, [00:56:00] painful, painful, but, but I think it’s going to be well worth the listen.

And I loved, I went to the Universalist Unitarian event on Friday night. and my daughter went to the event yesterday, down at city hall. And in all of all, I just love, I love the respect. That they were asking from everybody. And even my daughter was saying she was so proud of the young people of Fresno yesterday.

they, and the, and the organizers of the event were speaking and they said something about mayor elect dire, and people started booing and some were cursing and, and the organizers were like, no, no, no, no, no. No, we want the mayor elect to hear what we have to say, but we are not going to treat him that way and they shut it down.

And, you know, and I think those are the things that we do. and, and, and honoring one another. But I also am a big believer that the people that are from the greater power group, particularly our elected officials, you have to be willing to bring your humility [00:57:00] to the table first. Before you expect others to lay down their guard in some ways too.

So I, so I do say, yeah, we all have to treat each other the same, but at the same time, some of us have more responsibility to lay down our weapons and turn our, our swords into plowshares before we expect other people to, 

Craig Scharton: [00:57:17] well, back in the old days, we had, a place shooting and, the city council had a meeting, in that neighborhood.

and we didn’t run the meeting. We had a facilitator, facilitate the meeting for us so that we could just sit there and listen for hours. As people told us their stories about what was happening. So I really I’m hoping that our leaders, have this on the council agenda as a topic that they, that they, diligently look at the policies that are allowing these things to continue to happen.

And change them and that they enact new policies designed to prevent this from ever happening. 

[00:58:00] Paul Swearengin: [00:58:00] If I could say one other thing, too, in all of this that maybe opening up another can of corn, but the next time we have a measure P vote or something that would improve the parks in Fresno. When think of these.

Events. What, what building more parks in Fresno is all about is that we have less parks than almost any other city of our size in America. And our most impoverished neighborhoods have the least of them available that are. And habitable and good. And, and so building more parks is one way we attack the systemic nature of poverty and how poverty feeds into to crime and all the other things.

So next time you’re voting on something like that. And you’re just saying, Oh, I don’t want to have more taxes. Think about what, what am I investing in here as a city and a community. And I would particularly say to our elected officials, [00:59:00] If that measure doesn’t work for you instead of just attacking it and in sometimes using falsehoods to come against it, find a way to make it work and figure out how to make it work.

So I think that’s important in this discussion as well. 

Craig Scharton: [00:59:15] Yeah. Education, job, access, business access, all of those things are measurable and important and we know change people’s lives. so all of those things need to be on the table for our policy makers. We pay a lot more attention to what happens here than we do in Sacramento or Washington DC.

Cause they’re the ones that we get to meet and see and, and have some kind of relationship with us. So really let’s tell them all this needs to be on the agenda until real things start to shift. And real opportunities are made and real problems go away. So the thing that was going to be on my mind since we do that as a non-sequitur 

Paul Swearengin: [00:59:54] yeah.

Craig Scharton: [00:59:55] You told me about this guy, who, who, was a famous Christian [01:00:00] singer. I didn’t know who he was. Hawk. Something is the name of the band, 

Paul Swearengin: [01:00:04] Hawk Nelson, apparently. And I’ve never heard one of their songs in my life sent me 

Craig Scharton: [01:00:08] surprised it make me neither. So I did go to a Keith Green concert when I was, when I was a young Christian Guy and I really liked him.

Paul Swearengin: [01:00:19] He was very talented, died in a plane crash, unfortunately. 

Craig Scharton: [01:00:22] Yeah. So, but, so you told me about this guy. And so I read his posts about, you know, the difficulties he had and leaving his religion and, and having questions about it that caused him to, to leave it. And I thought that was really interesting.

And so I sent him a message on Instagram and he responded to it. Oh, wow. Yeah, I can’t, I, I, I wish that I could pull that out. I think I could pull that out. 

Paul Swearengin: [01:00:50] Remember the tenor of what he said. 

Craig Scharton: [01:00:53] Well, I’ll tell you what I said. Let’s see, John Stein guard is his name. 

Paul Swearengin: [01:00:59] Yeah. So [01:01:00] John, as you’re looking that up, if anybody hasn’t heard this story, John Stein guard, famous Christian musician, whom I’ve never heard of in my life, but apparently he’s famous came out this week.

Came out is probably not the 

Craig Scharton: [01:01:11] right tool. I think that’s really accurate. He was coming out to his family and his friends and his fans. Yeah. 

Paul Swearengin: [01:01:18] Yeah. But he wasn’t coming out as, as queer. He was coming out as no longer a believer in God. And this is a famous Christian musician and he says, I no longer believe in God.

So take it away. Correct. 

Craig Scharton: [01:01:30] Show what I wrote to him was rebuilding your understanding of yourself and the universe as a special act. It is an open time, cherish it, you will see and understand things in ways that a fixed belief had blocked this openness comes and goes. Even the Buddha didn’t stay in a perpetual state of Nirvana.

Once you’d achieved, it grow as much as you came peace and love. And he just said, I love this. Thank you. That was it. Ah, 

Paul Swearengin: [01:01:57] very good. Well, that’s nice of you to reach out and [01:02:00] encourage him like that, where we’re all on a journey and I’m, I’m journeying through my ideology and my theology and 

Craig Scharton: [01:02:08] politics. 

Paul Swearengin: [01:02:10] I hate it and love it all at the same time.

Craig Scharton: [01:02:13] Yeah, no, but it’s when you do that, you do tend to see things and understand things in a new, in a deeper way. It’s not fun, but it’s really important, you know, that’s. That’s why I signed up for DBT for a year. I want to challenge myself to learn new tools at, you know, anyone that’s going to a counselor or a 12 step program.

I mean, those are the people that are just challenging and growing and, and, I really admire them all. And if you’re one of those folks out there doing that, trying to make yourself a little bit better, so the world can be a little bit better. More power to you. It’s not easy if you’re, if you’re working and have a family and going back to school at night, you are a bad [01:03:00] ass.

That is really freaking hard to do. Like if you’re opening a business and, and understand what the risk, isn’t just a little four letter word, it’s something that really means a lot good for you. And whether it works or not, you know, good for you for trying and, jumping into the world with both feet. you know, there’s, there’s a lot of people out there that are doing some really good things and, and, we need, you know, 

Paul Swearengin: [01:03:27] and I understand that living and believing the way you’ve always believed is a more simple life.

And as humans, we naturally fight against being told we’ve ever been wrong or believed anything wrong. And in some ways, I can attest to this. In some ways you lose your community as you start to believe differently. And that’s a very hard thing. So sometimes, you know, particularly if they study Colts, you know, people choose to be deceived over losing their community.

They, they say, okay, yeah, you’re telling me truth, but I [01:04:00] would rather not see it. I would rather just be there. But I do promise that there is more fulfillment when you’re pursuing. Believing truth and wholeness more than what you’ve always, always known. So if there is a, there is a light at the end of that tunnel, I promise.

Craig Scharton: [01:04:17] Yeah. Well, and if you’re a Democrat and you think all Democrats are great and, and everyone else is wrong, then you’re not looking in hard enough. And if you’re a Republican doing the same, that’s hard enough. If, if you. If you’re a fundamentalist and you look at your Qur’an or your, your, Bhagavad Gita, your Bible, whatever it is.

And one word you find out isn’t true that it accidentally got stuck in there as a typo. And your entire worldview is going to fall apart because of those simple, you know, words that one piece can’t be removed or the whole building falls down. Then that is [01:05:00] just, that’s a scary place. You don’t want to be it’s it’s, it’s just too precarious to operate that way.

it is much better to look at it and say, Hmm, what are we doing wrong? And what can we do better? Let’s challenge ourselves. Let’s grow from this. and if we don’t grow from it, then we have wasted another loss life. So let’s grow from it. 

Paul Swearengin: [01:05:26] Words to finish on right there. Okay. All right, Craig, love you too, man.

I appreciate you, having this conversation and letting us continue to talk things out, letting me be a part of it. And, and everybody who’s joined us and listened to in this week. Jabbered our way through it. 

Craig Scharton: [01:05:44] Yeah. Well, we’re just trying to all figure this thing out before we croak, right. 

Paul Swearengin: [01:05:48] Yup. 

Craig Scharton: [01:05:49] All right.

Paul Swearengin: [01:05:49] Yep. Yep. Okay, man, we’ll see you soon. I look 

Craig Scharton: [01:05:52] forward to it. Thanks to everyone for joining